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zlher - "Selective Breeding" is define as taking the specimen with the closes trait(s), phenotypically, to the desired trait(s) and bred many generations to produce the resulting desired trait(s). Again, we are talking about selecting PHENO characteristics and not GENO. In the years of my breeding, I have come to realise that GENO is used as a fancy label to sell less than perfect PHENOS. Throught "selective breeding" any experienced breeder(s) should be able to devise a plan to acquire deltas or any other tail form type, and not just because the fish was a HM geno to begin with.
Phenotype means a genetic trait is expressed in some way (ie DT or melano) Exactly...if the trait is EXPRESSED, it normally means the required genes are carried, thus pheno is generically labeled as carrying the genes.
Genotype means the fish carries a trait genetically, but may or may not EXPRESS it outwardly.The fish with a certain genotype will carry a gene, and passes on the trait to it's offspring, either as a dominant or recessive gene.
If a breeder is telling you that a fish is a certain genotype, (and you can believe them), then the fish carries that gene genetically. Through selective breeding, you can bring out the desired trait. A betta being labeled HM geno means nothing until bred! How can a breeder label a fish as being HM geno when it may not even carry the genes? HM X HM does not mean that some the fry are going to be HM pheno and the rest are HM geno. It's more like hardly any HM pheno, some decent HM geno, and fair but non HM geno bettas. Now how can the breeder labeled the latter as being HM geno when and if bred, will never produced decent deltas (which is a sign of HM geno)?
- Jan 19, 2001
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KPPelletier - A HM has been defined many ways. What I
have read is this:
- Caudal fin at least 180 degree spread, not 179.9
- Straight edges on both rays on either side of caudal, possibly exteneding all the way to the end.
- 4x ray branching in the caudal
- Forward thrusting anal fin producing a
protruding look.
Most of the time people are just looking for the full 180 degree spread and calling it a HM. This is the most obvious trait and generally the other
traits follow.
A phenotype is something that is seen. A fish without outward signs of these traits cannot be defined as being HM phenotype. a super delta is a great fish and possibly from HM lines but I would not call it a HM phenotype. Surely a super delta existed before the HM was developed.
- Jan 19, 2001
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Terry - The HM's came from what today is called super delta. All the genes to get super delta are more magnififed, better refined, when you get a HM.
We had HM's in the 80's but we didn't call it that. The selective breeding done by the IBC and other breeders finally made the HM more common and gave it a name in the 90's. Not many people were breeding for anything other than long fins back then. They wanted symetry but color was first.
Make no doubt it is harder to get good form and finnage than to get good color. Fins first and then you can get the color in the next several generations.
These super Delts and HM's should and do come from the same stock, because they have the same genes. Eventually HM will be more pronounced than the superdelta and one day be a full moon.
- Jan 19, 2001
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Terry - An understanding of what geno is verses pheno needs to be addressed here.
Many people are calling Bettas that aren't the full 180 degree tail but close a geno. This is @$%^^. The problem with this is many of these so called genos are true phenotype but without the full spread, and will produce HM offspring at the same odds as a full HM fish will. There are several traits that go into getting a true looking HM. not one. HM is not a ONE gene!!!
A genotype only means they should carry the genes. You don't have to see them. That is what it only means. So when someone says Superveiltail verses HM alot of times these fish have the same genes. A super veil is just a "bad" HM but it is phenotypically showing all the HM genes. Get it!!
You can do genos if you want but it is hard to select the correct fish sometimes. because it is hard to see if they carry the genes if they don't show it. If they don't show the genes alot or work and luck is necessary. That is really what is trying to be explained here. Especially to an untrained eye on what to look for.
So when you say geno does that mean you see some of the traits but it is not HM or do you mean he mommy and daddy were HM. The correct answer is the latter.
HM classification should be better understood here: as far as branching rays, dorsal fin, long and strait caudal rays on the top and the bottom.
You have to look for all fo these genes to get HMs. So start with stock that shows alot of these traits. They are too hard to put together from scratch, unless you have about 20 years to kill to do it again.
- Jan 19, 2001
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